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said, “What did you put John Pastore up to? He came down here and told me that I should do on television what I did at the press conference.” So, he could do it, but as soon as he knew that camera was on --

He froze.

He froze. He worried about his sentences, he just worried about how he looked, and I never could get him out of that rut. Pastore was right. That particular tour de force was Johnson at his best, and he could have charmed the birds right off the trees, but he never could do it when he set his mind to do it. Kennedy could turn it on, just like you'd turn a switch. Ike couldn't do it either. Ike was very stiff in front of a camera. But, we're way away from the debates and campaigns.

I was involved in using television for campaigning, but we never got freedom except that once, in 1960, because when '64 came along, Johnson said, “Forget it,” and when the next time came around Nixon didn't want it.

Did you have any kind of extended discussion with Nixon about that? It was pretty clear that he didn't do too well in the prior debates.

He played both sides. He said he wanted it, but in his heart, I don't think he did want it. I think he wanted the use of television, on his own terms. Remember, he did those phony Town Hall meetings up in New England, which were very effective -- organized and run by a football coach from someplace in the Middle West. He bought the half hour, so we had nothing to say about how they used it, although in the news broadcast