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deputy editor--I've lost track of Ralph in this. Anyway, Ralph must have been up there, because the reason for moving the two up was that the succession problem was very apparent.

Succession to Donovan?

To Donovan. Because Donovan was going to reach '65 in May of '79, I think it was, and here we were with only a couple of years to go.

You mean that it was a question of choosing between Graves and Grunwald.

Graves and Grunwald.

Did you talk frequently with Donovan about that?

That we talked about continuously, leaning somewhat toward Graves, because I thought that with the multiplicity of publications that we, by then, had, a very good manager was the most important thing. And Ralph Graves had always proven himself to be a good manager, decisive, good at handling people. He was not as intellectual as Grunwald; he didn't have as much background in the arts, literature, so on, although he had written a couple of books. The conversation--it was not continuous, but on and off, maybe every month or two, Hedley and I would talk about it, and from time to time we would report our views to the board, and finally, Hedley--whose