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Yeah, there were-

Got to know him?

Yes, McNamara was a very active member there. He was on the executive committee and I was chairman of the executive committee. And he and Lloyd Cutler were the two, Lloyd Cutler is a lawyer who worked in the Carter administration. As a matter of fact, he and Hedley Donovan were the two people who were brought into the Carter administration when the Carter administration was fumbling so badly that everybody was saying, “They need some fresh blood.” And Lloyd became counsel to Carter, and did a very good job there. And he has been very instrumental in the executive committee. I'd say he and McNamara are the two most effective speakers, and the most knowledgeable people in that area. Of course, McNamara having been chosen of the Ford Co., Secretary of Defense, and an intimate of Kennedy's, and worked for Johnson, obviously has enormous experience. And is a very fine person.

Can you think of anything that is not in the public record. You know, that McNamara has told you, or just observations about McNamara, or something that would be interesting to put on the record, in other words.

Two things: one, he's very--I said John Gardner