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Well, at Time Inc. and in my non-profit activities. I've stuck to being a manager. I'm a good manager. And I've stuck to my knitting there. And I have a sense of organization and of putting the right people into the right jobs, and of building a team. I've just stuck to that instead of just going off and pretending that I was a great novelist, or the greatest editor, or something else. I am a pretty good editor, actually. But I've done what I'm good at. And in the outside activities it's been similar - it really hasn't been that different. I tend to be doing the same things, except I don't get paid, I have to give, [Laughs] instead.

Can you quantify the satisfaction you've gained from--if we compare your business life to your non-profit life? Or is that a silly question?

Well, it's a difficult one to answer just because I did forty-three years at Time Inc.. And how can I? I've done I guess, twelve at Harvard. And eight at the Library. The one place where I was absolutely unable to achieve anything at all was Bennington. But then, nobody else has either. [laughter]

O.K.

It is structured so that it can't be managed, improved, or do anything more than barely survive.

O.K. Let's go back to our discussion of public figures that you