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of alcohol consumed, just shows on his face and in his body. People look at him and say, “You know, my God, he looks so terrible.” Why, hell! He's only two years younger than I am. And of course, he had his problems with his private life. His second wife turned out to be not what he bargained for.

Were you a personal friend, are you a personal friend?

Yeah I guess so.

It doesn't seem like you like him very much.

Well, it's a dichotomy with him, you know. I admire what he's done. But he wouldn't be my buddy, you know. He came to my house for the weekend. They came. And they were perfectly pleasant, couldn't have been nicer. But it's not an experience that I would want to repeat very often.

Did he talk with you about Iacocca ever?

No. He talked to Marian about that though because Iacocca--when she went on the Board that was the issue. And he was getting, he was clearly doing everything he could to get Lee out of the picture.

Did you know Lee Iacocca?