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have outside directors. They were real participants in the affairs; as a matter of fact, some of them were also investors in it.

Okay.

Sam Meek was there, because I forget where he had met him first, but Sam Meek was at J. Walter Thompson, and he was the only man who knew anything about advertising! In those days, we didn't even have an advertising director. So if there was an advertising director, he was probably Sam Meek, who said, “Well, at least you should go out and hire somebody, and you should make presentations, and you should do this and that and that.” And so Moore was the one who handled Harry and the corporation in corporative affairs, Griffin in financial aspects, Meek in advertising and selling--

Meek.

Meek, I mean. Meek in advertising and selling. Let me see if there was anybody else in those early, early, early days.

Larsen?

Yes--Larsen I don't think was a director that early, because he was hired out of a bank in Boston, and made into a circulation man out of necessity, because there wasn't anybody there who knew how to write direct mail. And not that Roy had any experience in it, but somehow or other he seemed to have learned, and