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before criss-cross, because China and religion and McArthy and Europe and Republicanism and foreign policy all are mixed up with those origins of his.

How would you--you knew him--you dealt with him. Let's state this now: how much personal dealings through the years did you have with Luce?

Oh, well--from the mid-1940s on I had an awful lot of dealings with Luce. Mostly in meetings, mostly not one-on-one, sometimes one-on-one. And they would range from purely business matters--the profitability of LIFE, the quality of paper, or how you're going to solve this problem or that problem--to more general subjects, and, as time went by, more sort of theoretical and abstract issues which he delighted in discussing at length, at length. And as it went on the discussion became more monologuey than discussion.

But you didn't--is it accurate to say that you didn't socialize with him? I don't mean that you weren't at a social affair, but--

No, but I never really socialized very much with anybody in the company.

Just to establish your relationship with him in the company--

He was not my friend the way Roy Larsen was. Roy Larsen was my sort of substitute father. I never really had a father, and