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Roy, who was nineteen or twenty years older than I, was my substitute father. He was much more than just my boss, and always remained that till his death at eighty. And I was very fond of Roy. I was never fond of Harry. It wasn't easy to be fond of Harry.

Why?

Because you knew he wasn't going to be fond of you, I suppose, is one reason--one major reason.

He wasn't an emotionally-giving person that way?

No. It was always a--I've got to say it was nearly always a confrontation. I don't mean a confrontation in really adversarial terms, or the negative sense of it, but a confrontation in terms of--it was always an issue that you were having to deal with, and he had no chit-chat.

So there wasn't a lot of relaxed time you spent with him.

It sure as hell wasn't.

But would you say that through those decades you were one of his top five--shall we say subordinates, or lieutenants, whatever you want to call them? Just again, to define your relationship to him. Top five or ten?