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know, one simple way of putting it is they were out every night or entertaining every night. They lived the full life together. And, of course, she was a very attractive woman, and she was very bright, and she was very entertaining when she wanted to be, and she had a lot to do with making him what he became.

What about her political influence on him?

Well, I think he was always a Republican. He was reasonably conservative. As you know, she swung from being a reasonably conservative Republican to a fairly rabid right-winger. But that movement continued after his death, so I'm trying to--I should say that she was not as rabid a right-winger in the 1960s as she became afterwards and is now.

Did you have a lot of dealings with her? Did people at the company have a lot of dealings with her at the social events that Luce would have to be at that pertained to the company?

Not very much. Nobody particularly wanted to.

Were people afraid of her?

Yes, I think so.

Why?