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then came in--this was the board of the Inter-American Press Association--and he came up to each one of us. He would be introduced, but he knew something about each one of us, and our particular interests, and he was able to ask just the right question of twenty-five different assorted characters. We were all mouth-open, knowing he'd come from shaking hands with five hundred people, and suddenly he's shaking hands with twenty-five people, and is able to concentrate as he gets the name, you know--

Do you remember what he asked you?

I'm not sure.

Is it accurate to say that the beginning of Luce's less direct involvement in the editorial product was moving to Rome? Which would be 1953?

Oh, sure. Sure, yes. He was gone most of the time for four years?

Three.

Three or four years. Then he came back, then he--when was his heart attack, 1960?

1958.