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This would be maybe the late 1960s?

That would be right, yes. It would be mid-sixties. It was before the riots. But I suppose I got to step back a bit here and explain the beginning of my interest in urban affairs. In the '52, '53--because of Architectural Forum I got involved in meetings between government officials, developers. And usually they divided into two camps: the ones who believed in massive urban renewal, public housing, so on so on; and the others who you might say believed in the “trickle-down theory”--that it all, that everything should be done with private moneys. The camps were very, very firm in their views and yet everybody felt something should be done. And they decided to create an organization that would be composed of people from both camps, but they couldn't agree on who should be chairman of it because they wouldn't take somebody who had a very firm point of view. As sort of an observer in those occasions, because of my connection with Architectural Forum, I ended up by being chairman, and that was the start of my interest in urban affairs. Then we created--

Chairman of what? What was it called?

It wasn't Urban-America--the first one started in 1953 was ACTION: The American Council to Improve Our Neighborhoods--it was the first organization. Then, five years later it became Urban America, which was a putting together of action with a group that was led by Steve Currier that had more interest in design and the