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tell Dean Rusk. Do you know Dean Rusk.” I said yes. “Oh, how do you know him?”

So, I think that [William] Clinton is going through that same process now. But, there were a couple other people Kennedy didn't know in the meeting I had with him. They weren't people I recommended, but names that came up that he asked me if I knew. They later showed up in his Cabinet, and they were people he didn't know until a week before he met them.

He was not a part of the American establishment in any way.

No. Well, I guess, on a lower level, that happens, even, for example -- Yesterday I had lunch with the Chancellor, or, I guess she has the title of President of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. I had met her when she was first appointed about a year ago, because I was on an advisory committee that had served the earlier president --

[END TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE TWO, SIDE TWO]

Her name was [Frances Degen] Horowitz, you said?

Her name is Horowitz, and she was made president after the man who had been in there died a year and a half or so ago [Harold M. Proshansky]. She came from Kansas, and knew nothing about New York politics. She's now been stripped of so much of her budget, not in any way penalizing her personally or her school, but it's across the board so they're all suffering, and she's scampering around trying to raise funds. Because I had called on her (and I think the reason I called on her was because she took her PhD in psychology and