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Again, it's April 11, 1995, and I'm in Dr. Stanton's office. It's Mary Marshall Clark and this interview is being conducted for the Columbia University Oral History Research Office.

We haven't really touched on your relationship with Harvard and how that began and what you did there. Could you hold on just a minute? [Tape stops and starts] Okay, we're running now.

There were two periods in my relations with Harvard. One goes way back to, I would guess, in the early 1950s I was asked to serve on the visiting committee. I guess I also believe that to have been a six-year appointment, but maybe it was less. Then I had no relations with Harvard at all until I was in retirement and in 1977 or 1978, someplace along in there, I received a call from a friend of mine, Andrew Heiskell, and Heiskell at that time was on the Board of Overseers, and he called me and said he had just left the meeting and they would like to have me stand for overseer. Some of this I think maybe you already have.

We've only touched on it very briefly, not really in any depth.

But when Heiskell said that to me I realized that he was referring to something having to do with Harvard, and I said, “Andrew,” and I knew Andy very well, I said: “Andrew, I never went to Harvard.” A long pause, and he said: “Serves them right,” and