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questions again when you want to get radio information. And even television is going to go that same route because they're so screwed up now with cable and television and what channel programs are on -- Research is in a bad way. But that's on another --

We'll get to that.

But, jumping around, those are some of the things that happened in the early days.

When you returned then you -- Well, at the time you were at CBS, they were suffering from the report of the Crossley Survey. Is that correct?

Yes. Crossley was the -- Arch Crossley was the man who did the telephone surveys. And he did it for the Association of National Advertisers. And it was called the CAB -- the Cooperative Analysis of Broadcasting. It was supported by the big users of radio. They wanted to find out what they were buying. The networks couldn't furnish the information. The networks -- all we did was to say, “We have a station in Wichita.” And we'd draw a circle on the map and say, “That's what it covers” and get the population in there. But we didn't know who had radios, or who listened or anything else. Those early research techniques were all developed in some large measure by CBS.

So you returned to Ohio to complete your dissertation. You had two more years.

Oh, yes. This was sort of a side venture. The recording device was a development of my last year of graduate study. That wasn't -- the things I did before that that got CBS's