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phone. But the people who frequently were listening were not the ones you talked with. Plus the fact I think at that time only about twenty-five percent of the families had telephones --

Right.

So your sample was a very biased sample, upper-income sample. And what CBS saw was one thing, and that was that they saw a way to get a broader look at the audience by using that kind of a device; because you had poor people as well as rich people if they had electricity.

And Kesten, I think very wisely, realized that there were some audiences that CBS had that NBC didn't have; and they were generally in the less educated, less economically well-off. And so anything that gave them a better picture of the audience was something that CBS wanted to support. And I was all for it because -- I didn't care about whether it helped them in sales -- I just knew that if you were going to measure the audience, you couldn't measure it by taking the top twenty-five percent of the audience, and talking to them the day after the event. You had to catch them while they were doing their listening, which there were other ways to do. But the little device certainly was one way to do it. And that -- not my device but a similar device was developed by a group in Chicago four or five years later, and that later became the Nielsen report and they put recorders on television sets and so forth. But they went out of the radio business --

Right. Yes.

Because you can't put them on a little portable set. So you're back to asking