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His name was Lazarsfeld.

Paul Lazarsfeld.

Yes. Hadley Cantril and I brought Paul to this country, which is a story we might get into later. But at those dinners on Sunday night when we'd sit around and I'd sit there and listen to these people -- They could interpret everything, it just drove me absolutely up the wall. And I was almost kicked out of the group -- I was never really accepted except Paul and I had a good relationship. But Katherine Horney, is it?

Karen Horney.

Karen Horney. Well, she was a member of the group. I can't even remember -- I remember her because I had a hell of a fight with her.

What was the fight about?

I think something I'm going to come to right now. I said to them one night, “I get sick and tired of you people just telling me what the interpretation of what your patients said and so forth, and what you said. Why don't you let me record the whole --” Oh, my God. Nobody ever infected the holy water the way I did by that comment. But that went back to my Ohio State behaviorism: If you can't take it into the laboratory and reproduce it -- forget it; unless it's astronomy, or some other science that couldn't be reproduced in a laboratory.

But I was a skeptic. I didn't believe any of this nonsense about the subconscious and so forth.