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They had the power. And what I'm now talking about is they had the stronger station.

Yes.

And to the extent that the advertiser and the agencies had any sophistication at all, they put their programs on NBC. So NBC was a fat cat just taking the business. We had to scramble. And we got some overflow business, because NBC couldn't handle it, but very little of that because their schedule wasn't full at that time. But they had it much easier than we had it. We had to be inventive. We had to, not only develop new uses for radio but we had to get out and find advertisers in one region that might use it, and then find an advertiser in another region that might use the same program. And feed it -- feed two commercials -- one to the eastern part of the country and one to the western part of the country. Thereby creating a source of income from smaller advertisers. NBC didn't pay any attention to them at all, because they were strictly a national medium. We had to scramble for everybody we could get.

And I wanted our people -- I'm talking about our Sales Department and our Research Department -- to be available practically twenty-four hours a day to answer questions from any client. Because I wanted Madison Avenue -- meaning the location of the most important agencies at that time -- to know that if they had a question about radio, whether their program was on CBS or NBC, the place to call was the CBS Research Department.

What would you say was the image of CBS to the advertisers say, in 1938 as opposed to NBC -- more than in terms of a powerful network. But would an advertiser think about other things as well when he was coming to --