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We had no trouble getting in. And I didn't do the study. I got an outside organization, perfectly legitimate research group, and not representing who the third network group was but simply saying they had the commission to do this study. And I think we got in almost every place we wanted to get in. We didn't always get the chief executive or the president. We certainly got the ad manager and the sales manager. After all, those were the ones we wanted anyway. And they would say, “Well, if you can get the guy that's the head of sales at CBS, you've got it made.” And we came up head and shoulders above NBC at that time. So we knew where our strengths were and where our weaknesses were. And it became very useful in terms of senior management at CBS in showing up certain lacks in the company.

If we found that NBC had somebody very good in audience mail--something we don't even talk about in these days, but it was important at that time -- if they were doing a better job of audience mail than CBS was doing, we damn well pulled up our socks and looked at what we were doing. It had nothing to do with research as it was defined when I came in, which was audience research and market research. This was really management research. Management should have been doing it on its own. But I came up with the idea and it caught the imagination of, I guess, Paul Kesten. And that's why it was fun working there, -- because if you had a new idea, I could find somebody upstairs who said, “How much will it cost? Let's do it. And why the hell didn't you do it sooner?”

For example, one day the FCC came out with an Engineering Report -- what they called an Engineering Report -- on the performance of clear channel stations versus I forgot what they called the others -- they weren't non-clear but -- But they published a report showing that