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from the engineers because they didn't want the postcard stuff to get into their act --that the FCC decided to have a hearing. And Lucky Pierre was to be the witness for CBS.

And I went down with my very academic approach to the problem and the lawyer we had was not a CBS lawyer. I don't think we had a Law Department at that time. I think we were using a law firm in Washington. The lawyer listed me as a witness. And I got on the witness stand in a building on Constitution Avenue, great big cavernous hall where they were having the hearing. There must not have been more than twenty-five people in the auditorium, all clustered around the stage. And I was marched up as the witness early in the morning. And the lawyer asked me my name, where I lived, what I did. And the lawyer for the engineering, and for the FCC said, “I object. What are his qualifications?” And my lawyer didn't know enough to say what my qualifications were. He turned to me and said, you know, “What are your qualifications?” So I said, “I did a lot of audience research.” To which the lawyer for the FCC said, “I object. He's not qualified. That evidence is all hearsay. It's what somebody said they did. What we have is what the signals really do.” My back went straight up. And I kept saying, “No. It's important to find out what the public does. Not just what the engineers say it does.” Well, that was stricken from the record. I wasn't allowed to say that. I wasn't qualified.

A man who later became head of -- I guess at one point may even have been chairman of the FCC but was certainly a landmark commissioner on the Commission -- a navy commander who was an electronics engineer and that's how he was on the FCC -- and at the time I'm talking about he was chief engineer. He got up and said that he would not tolerate me as a witness because I had no qualifications. I wasn't a lawyer therefore I couldn't, in effect, be trusted. I wasn't an engineer, I didn't know what I was talking about. And he just had