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Yes. My recollection is he'd been night city editor at the Times, then moved over to J. Sterling Getzel or Lennon and Newell or one of the adverstising agencies, was there a short time and then came to CBS.

To go back to your career at CBS, when was your first meeting with Bill Paley? Do you recall? Or the first time you had a conversation with him? [Pause]

I know you probably had so many that --

No, I didn't. It was before World War II.

You were named vice president in 1942. Had you met him then, by that time?

Well, I knew him. I'd speak to him in the hall. I had been in meetings with him. I had never been in a one-on-one meeting with him until the day he asked me to be president.

Wow!

No, I was never close to him at all. Klauber, I knew. And Kesten, I knew in the office. I didn't know him out of the office at all. He had a strange private life. In today's culture it would probably be no problem, but I think he was living with a woman. Never brought her to any social events. She was never in the building to my knowledge. I never met her until he retired from the company. He was very private. I was in his apartment occasionally, but very, very occasionally. Never saw anybody socially above me, so to speak. Klauber never. Paley never. A couple of the vice presidents, no. No, I did not see Paley one- on-one until the day after he returned from the European Theater. He was still in uniform.