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competitor for Kesten's and later Paley's nod. But we worked together and made it work. Ream and I traveled together. We had a lot of interests outside of the company together. Intellectually, I think we were closer together than White. And when I had to make a change in the record company management I asked Frank White to become chairman of the board of the record company And this meant a lot to him because he was the chairman and I was only the president. Those things made a difference. And I gave him that company to run. Later then he was offered the presidency, I believe, of the Mutual Broadcasting Company. He did that for a very short time. And then was in a job that had been offered to me too earlier. And he later became president of NBC and then was in his eyes ahead of me, because there was no Paley at NBC, although there was a [David] Sarnoff at RCA. That didn't count. So for the record I simply describe this kind of, I guess, jealousy that develops in many companies. And we accommodated ourselves to it, but we were never buddies in the sense that Joe Ream and I were.

Given that there was this level of competence, really, at the top of the country while Paley was away, how do you think he made his decision about you? I mean, I know that you were recommended to him but--

That's all he had.

That's all he had? He knew he'd be working with you for quite a long time. Do you think he had to make a personal judgement about you would get a long with him?

The behavior that he demonstrated after I left the company, when he hired Chick