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[Charles T.] Ireland as my successor, did it on the base of two meetings -- total outsider -- at least in my case, there were two or three guys that had worked with me and recommended me for something. Ireland he didn't even know. I introduced him. Ireland died but Ireland would have died or been out of the company shortly later anyway because Paley and Ireland didn't get along.

Yet then he turned around and hired Arthur Taylor. He didn't know Arthur Taylor. I think he had two meetings with Arthur Taylor. That didn't work. Then he put John [D.] Backe in. He barely knew him although the had been in the company, and that didn't work. And then he hired Tom [Thomas H.] Wyman. And he introduced Tom Wyman, had lunch with him because somebody said he'd make a good director. And after the meeting decided maybe he'd make a good president and he fired Backe and put Wyman in.

I see. You've answered my question.

What?

You've answered my question well.

Sure. So it's no feather in my cap that he took me sight unseen. He was taking everybody sight unseen. And I knew that Kesten and Paley didn't hit it off. I knew that Kesten admired Paley for some of his dashing behavior but there was -- I could feel it -- I certainly knew that Paley and Klauber didn't hit it off, because Klauber told me with tears in his eyes not to let Paley do to me what he had done to him.