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He thought that this would advance my cause in the company if I had this kind of support for programming. I didn't go for it. I rejected it with him and certainly never went forward with anything that he proposed on that score, largely because I knew two things about it: one, was that it wasn't very quantitative; and second, that -- I guess three reasons -- second, that the program people wouldn't stand for that kind of overview of their product. And the third thing was it would have been a very expensive thing to do. It might have been a useful thing for me to have done if I'd have had the budget for it because I think I would have grown to know more about our product, going at it that way than I did by going at it from the consumer. But in the end we were trying to reach consumers and not trying to please critics, and frequently the things that critics liked the public didn't like. So I was torn and just didn't go ahead with it. Paul was disappointed, he thought I should do it.

Then about some place along in -- I think in the late thirties -- perhaps we were already at war -- one weekend or one Saturday or Sunday morning meeting, we got to talking about the need for the field of psychology or the social sciences to get on speaking terms with other disciplines in the social sciences. And patterned after something that I'm not even sure that I recall now what it was, but Paul said there ought to be a place where young practitioners, whether they were researchers or teachers in the field of psychology, could spend the years comparing notes, and that led to well, what about bringing economists and sociologists and others into it? And we played around with it and thought, you know, it would be wonderful to go off to an island some place and just contemplate your navel. And this was an extravagant session of dreaming. Whether that's the beginning or not, I don't know, but certainly for me it was where I took off on what later became the Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences.