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were, I think, great days for television because that was original material and we encouraged young writers. You can't do it today -- the cost and the risk would be too great. But “Playhouse 90” didn't come out of any -- It's difficult to tell where it came from in my case, because I saw the need for it in the schedule. But I certainly didn't -- there wasn't any research I had done on that. That was just looking at the schedule and the flow of programming and saying, wouldn't it be good if we had a solid, fresh dramatic presentation every week in this time period. But it didn't survive. It was a critical success and only a partial success as far as the audience was concerned. But “Gunsmoke,” a formula western, had a long life. It disappeared because it did lose some of its strength. Paley said one time, when they were desperate for something to fill a time period, Why don't we bring “Gunsmoke” back and reproduce it again with new writers? and so forth. And it had a second life.

But there are some formula programs that can be continued because you've got an ever changing audience out there. The kids become adolescents and adults and the learning cycle goes all over again.

I don't think there's a lot more I can tell you about Paul Lazarsfeld. I didn't bring him in to CBS in any way, shape or form. I don't think he ever met any of my colleagues in CBS.

And CBS never contracted the Bureau for any kind of research?

Maybe after I left. That is, after I left the research job. I turned it over to Bud Wilson. And Bud knew Paul because they worked together at OWI, he might have turned to Paul for some research, I don't recall.