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State Department, but it was created by Congress and it had its own independent status. Well, anyway, he wanted me to take it on. I told him that I wasn't the person to do it, that I would help if he wanted me to come up with some names.

Well, he said, will I talk to Dean Rusk. Because he told me in confidence -- I believe it was before Rusk had been publicly announced -- anyway, whether it was or not -- he asked me to talk to Rusk about it, because Rusk would have the job of appointing him. He still had this fixation that it was a part of the State Department. And I was a little tolerant and said I'd get it straightened out with Dean, because I knew Dean Rusk and I could talk with him.

I think I was with him maybe ninety minutes. Asked me all kinds of advice or for suggestions about people for the Cabinet. Asked me how well I knew a man by the name of [Robert S.] MacNamara, asked me whether I knew him and I said yes, I knew him. What did I think of him and so forth. This was -- he didn't know -- he was very uninformed about potential people for his own Cabinet.

I went out and of course the press was all there, wanted to know what was going on, and I didn't disclose what we'd talked about. He did tell me that he would debate in the next election. That particular morning Bobby was quoted in Roscoe Drummond's column in the Herald Tribune that it was okay to debate this time, but the next campaign he wasn't going to debate. Jack told me in that --

Why was that? What was the rationale behind that?

That he wouldn't debate? Well, as the --