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think there had been two or three of them already on and they had been quite successful. Not great audiences but substantial audiences. And it was a new thing in the campaign and there was a lot of talk about it. And the UPI man asked me, something about whether there would be a fifth debate. We had only agreed to four at the outset. God, that was a difficult job even to get four. But I had said that if there were a fifth debate, I was going to propose it be between the candidates for Vice-President. Boom! Across the wires of the country: Stanton Proposes Debates with the Vice Presidential candidates. Johnson was in North Carolina campaigning when it hit him, and he got on the phone and I remember where I was to this day at home, got me on the phone and said, what the hell did I mean getting him involved in the debate? He wasn't going to debate and he wanted me to know that. And, in effect, I should keep my mouth shut, this was a rotten idea.

On the other hand, [Henry] Cabot Lodge, Cabbot Lodge had said to me he thought it was a good idea and he would be glad to talk about the arrangements any time that we wanted to talk with him about it. Well, it never happened.

The Presidential debates didn't happen again until when?

What?

When were the next Presidential debates after the Kennedy-Nixon -- not until the --

Oh, they didn't happen again until [James E.] Carter and Ford.

Carter and Ford. Why was that? Were people scared of them?