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Well, Johnson wouldn't debate.

Right.

I can't -- Who ran against Nixon? [George] McGovern?

Was there ever any idea of having them debate?

We got right up against the deadline on that one and Nixon obviously didn't want it. I don't think there were any debates with Nixon and McGovern. I know I had talks with McGovern about it and I had talks with Nixon about it. But it's understandable why Nixon took the position he did and I couldn't fault him for that. Yes, I could, but I didn't because I think that something like the debates should be held but I've long since changed my mind about debates per se because of the thing that Bobby Kennedy did in the very first debate when he said, you know, forget the question, just remember your answer.

So Nixon's classical debating style didn't fit in --

-- no

the planned --

If I had my way about it, I would have the two candidates for President sit down face to face in front of the camera, and take a single issue and discuss it. I would have no