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Now I can see why the people who set up the United Way did it the way they did, because payroll deductions for charitable organizations were driving business organizations crazy-- because they didn't want to take something out of your paycheck for Red Cross and then something out for the Catholic Charities and so forth. They wanted one deduction.

But Harriman, I think, made a mistake when he agreed to go into the United Way. And we were big enough at that time and well enough organized nationally that we could have maintained our own campaign.

What were the other ways in which you did fundraising?

Well, if there's a disaster, you put on a special campaign. And that comes from the public or it comes from business, and you're organized so that you can call the IBMs and the GEs and so forth and say, “We have a disaster and we need a certain amount of money.” Frequently, they have employees affected in the area, so they want to help support. That's one way.

You go on national radio and national television and try to raise funds that way. Then, of course, each chapter has a list of people that they can go to for a basic contribution and can go back to, if they need more.

It's a major fundraising activity. I've forgotten now what we raised, but it was hundreds of millions. It got so that I didn't want to see any of my friends any more. [Q. laughs]

In terms of the ongoing functions of the Red Cross--like servicing the military, for