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That's interesting. I remember in the early part of your interview, when you were thinking that some day you would work at Procter & Gamble in Cincinnati, as you were growing up--

[Interruption]

There was a time when she and Kay Graham were very close. I mentioned C.P. Panellis. She was probably as close to C.P. as anybody in this part of the country. I was never too clear as to why, but they broke on a matter of principle and she never forgave C.P. Yet C.P., when she went through her third marriage, I guess, inherited a young, adolescent girl by the marriage and was having difficulty adjusting--C.P. was having difficulty accommodating her interests and getting along with this adopted--well, not adopted, but daughter--she turned to Ruth for help, and I think I found a letter she wrote to Ruth in which she said that everything that developed in the relationship with the girl she owed to Ruth, because Ruth had guided her every step along the way and wanted to know how she handled it. So she was terribly close to C.P. But C.P., for some reason, tried to take over my life, as far as Cooper Union was concerned.

What do you mean by that?

Well, she invited me to appear on her academic--She was a teacher, at Parsons, I guess, and I guess Ruth felt C.P. had designs on me and at that time was inviting me to come down and have dinner and things--which I didn't do--but it certainly didn't sit well with Ruth. So she, in effect, said to hell with it and that was it, and I don't think ever saw C.P. again. There was absolutely nothing to it. I had known C.P.'s second husband, I guess, pretty