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highest point on a ratio in its membership. And we had presidents of the student body -- one of them when I was there as a freshman, was president of the students body -- I was a candidate for president of the student body, didn't make it. But it was a fraternity that was into everything. It had more lettermen than I expect most chapters had. It certainly had student activity representation. I was head of the honorary fraternity and undergraduate and so forth. And before me I think Don had been the year before. So it was a --

Something that you respected as well.

Oh, yes, and I was really shocked when I found out that the national fraternity had these rules. It never came to --

The national fraternity had these rules? How was your letter received?

With disdain. And I was reprimanded by the national secretary. I think the Amada Banta [b.a.n.t.a.], I think a publishing family somewhere in Milwaukee or someplace in Wisconsin. And I guess there were over a hundred chapters of the fraternity at that time, several chapters in the state of Ohio. And generally they were in the top two or three of the fraternities on the campuses. In Ohio and, as you may or may not know, Ohio had, when I was in school, I think there were fifty-four different colleges in the state.

In fact, one of the jobs I took on was selling clothing and selling -- because I had come out of the clothing business. And another thing I did was to sell photo engraving for college yearbooks to the yearbook editors in the various colleges. And I toured many of those schools