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This was when you were in graduate school? This was after you left Ohio?

Oh yes this was after. I didn't -- you know, I was so naive, I never even read the national -- it was spelled out in the national chapter if I had ever paid attention to read it. I never looked at -- I just took it on faith.

I guess you didn't expect it.

No, no.

How did you come to terms with this in any way? Were you able to maintain any relationship at all with any of the people -- eventually -- in the fraternity? Or were you completely cut off at the end?

I had three roommates in four years. My senior year, working backwards was the editor of the daily paper on the campus, and he and I were very close and he went to law school and I never heard from him. But he died very young. He died I think about the time that I was up to my chin in this controversy.

My roommate my freshman year left Ohio Wesleyan and went to medical school. In fact, he wasn't even in the fraternity. And he was close enough to me that he knew what I was up to. And he was covered on my list. And we never had any real discussion about it. And the one that I was -- I can't say I was closest to -- the one I was close to as a roommate did