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So he said, “Give us your train ticket and your expenses.” Because he didn't know what hotel I was staying in, and he would take care of it. So I beat it back to the hotel and said to Ruthie, “Now we can spend some money.” (Laughter) And I think we extended our stay a day and then drove back to Ohio; and of course, a first-class -- they didn't call it first-class -- but a train ticket with a berth was enough to take care of all of our expenses. And so it was fine. And I guess that's the first experience I had with an expense account, anyway.

Exciting moment. What was the meeting like in which your invention was --

With CBS?

Yes. What was your first meeting with them like? Did you meet with anyone other than Kesten?

I didn't even meet -- I think I got to say hello to him but he turned me over to other people. Well, I brought along one of my recorders because I was pretty proud of this child. And the chief engineer scoffed about it, thought it was a silly idea. I never did like him even after I moved up into the company after that. And he took and banged it on the desk. Well, it wasn't that sturdy a piece of equipment. And he said, “You know, this won't stand up in the field.” Well, hell, I knew it had been because I'd run about a hundred cases on them. But the other people were interested in the drop-outs in memory of the things that people thought they had done and didn't do or did and forgot about; and how those things related to time of the day and the family and so forth. What CBS was depending on at that time was a system of making telephone calls in certain cities and asking in the morning what happened the night before. Long before women were in the work force. So you got somebody to answer the