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was the protegee of Paul. And I would have done anything in the world for him. I think -- maybe I told you this -- the day after [William S.] Paley offered me the job, I told Kesten that he ought to take it and I'd do all the donkey work and so forth. He was a brilliant man.

At this period, say, when you were named vice president in 1942, radio, by this time was established as an advertising medium, without any question, is that right?

Oh, certainly. Sure.

When would you date that as happening -- because it had grown tremendously?

Oh, I'd say by '36, '37, it was already established. I remember something in '37 -- I think that was a bit of an economic turn down year, not for us but for industry at large. Well, we were still in the Depression. And Chrysler was having a difficult time staying afloat. And Chrysler cut rear view mirrors, cut all the gimmicks off their cars, just stripped them to lower the price of the car. Magazines because their lead time was so great and their ads had to be prepared in advance and were already on the press -- by the time Chrysler made the decision to do an economy car, there wasn't any way to tell the country about it except by radio.

Right.

So we just moved into Detroit and said, “If you want to tell about what you've done, why this was the medium to use.” So we were already accepted from that point of view. I