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figured in the plans. But I believe Gaudet was Paul's initial contact. And they welcomed Paul, but they didn't have anything to offer in the way -- it was a very poor, urban, central city operation. We went from the ivy covered halls of Princeton to rehabilitated downtown quarters in Newark. And Paul wasn't happy. But he did make some contacts there that were useful, and then we moved it from there over to Union Square, in miserable space. But we still had some money and the Rockefeller Foundation was willing to -- By that time Paul had laced himself into the Foundation to the point where he got their permission to move to Newark and to Union Square, without having to have an academic host. I don't think he had one at -- I know he had one at Newark but I don't think we had one at Union Square. But maybe that was the beginnings of his connection with Columbia.

Columbia, yes.

Paul had stayed close to the [Helen and Robert] Lynds, as had I. When I say close to them, that's an exaggeration. I saw them from time to time, but kept in touch and to a lesser extent Cantril stayed away from Paul, or to a greater extent, he stayed away from him --

Why is that?

Why? Well, Paul was a great womanizer and Hadley was not happy with Paul's behavior vis a vis Hadley's wife. I don't know what happened but I guess in the big world it would be given a mention or a footnote, but at that time Cantril pretty much turned on Lazarsfeld. I believe the incident that created the problem took place at my apartment, or maybe it was at Paul's in New York. But at any rate, my wife thinks it took place in our