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John quite approved of what the programming and so forth of radio was doing. Certainly I knew no one in the foundation at that time on John Marshall's level or above him. I don't even recall who was head of the foundation at that time. But once the Cantril-Stanton period passed with Marshall, even though John was put off by a lot of Paul's personal behavior, he recognized that this was an important figure in sociology.

After the war, I didn't see a lot of Paul, because by this time Columbia was reaching for the Bureau to come into -- Well, I'm not sure they reached or whether Paul pushed, probably a little bit of both. I know that because they changed the structure of the board of the Bureau. I call it a board, it was really just an advisory group. But Paul told me that when the Department of Sociology adopted him and made him, I guess, a visiting professor, they looked askance at this board that he had, and I was disinvited. Or Paul said he was going to have to have an academic board, people from the departments, and outsiders weren't welcome. And I had no trouble with understanding that problem. So I didn't really participate much with policy for the Center, although Paul was in and out of my life -- When he had a problem he would call me, and, as I recall, I did the same thing.

I saw Paul mostly during business hours for reasons that I've already referred to. Paul thought that I ought to separate, get a divorce, and that made me very uneasy because it was the other side of what I was facing at home if I had pursued the relationship with Paul. He always wanted me to meet some of his female friends. He thought I wasn't living and I could do a lot better. I'm afraid, putting it bluntly, he didn't understand Ruth, and certainly she didn't understand him, and he wanted me to come to his side of the street. So Paul went his own way at Columbia, and then in that time he got very interested in mathematics. And had a child by his then third wife, I guess. While we saw each other, I don't think Ruth ever met