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In the early days of the Ed Sullivan Show, when Ed had talent, black talent, and after a song or an act he would put his arm around the talent, I could count on affiliates calling me and saying, We're not going to carry this program anymore because this is fostering a kind of camaraderie that is more than we can take and frequently was labelled as communist.

So, sure, we're gonna -- I'm not going to have to live with it, but somebody's going to have to live with it.

To go back to it again, briefly, what was Paley's role during this period? Was he supportive of the loyalty oath and --

Oh, yeah. Sure.

-- and the clearing activities?

He was supportive and certainly never said, Don't do it. I don't know what he would have done if he'd been running the thing. But he was above it, in a sense, and that was my baby to worry about. But, on the other hand, he didn't say, Let's not do it. I wish he had.

But it went through the record business, it went through Hollywood, it went through every place. That's no excuse for why we did it but I mean we weren't alone.